Love, honor, and obey? | Playgroups are No Place For Children

June 25, 2008 | Filed in: Huh?, Men?, marriage

Yesterday’s post straight out of 1950 where I play the perky, but sometimes discontent housewife got me thinking about our roles as women these days.

Somehow my train of thought led me to start thinking about the wedding of a friend, actually the wedding where I met Tate, where my girlfriend’s part of the vows included saying that she promised to love, honor, and obey her husband. I remember being utterly shocked. Obey?? Really? It was 1998, not 1898.

After the wedding, (not right after, more like a year or two after) I asked her why they included the word “obey” in her vows. She said she hadn’t even realized that and joked that really it should have been her husband who promised to obey because we all knew who REALLY wore the pants in that family.

I’m just going to go ahead and throw this out there that this was a Baptist wedding. Me not being Baptist, I have no idea if this is common practice, or if it’s common amongst different types of Baptists and not others. I also have no idea if other religions include this in their vows, though I’m certain it’s not just a Baptist thing. My Methodist wedding vows did not include the word “obey,” which is a good thing because I wouldn’t have been cool with saying that.

In my opinion, I cannot fathom vowing to obey anyone. Conversely, I wouldn’t want someone to vow to obey me. (Well, okay, I sorta would.) It seems very outdated and has been outdated since the last century. I am aware, though I don’t fully understand that the “obey” part of the vows is not only said, but also adhered to for some. Saying that is in no way meant to be judgmental, but since it is not a part of my reality, it’s hard for me to comprehend.

I’m curious if your vows include the word “obey?” If so, what did you think about it?

I know this topic has the possibility of starting a firestorm in the comments because we may be discussing faith based, personal issues, so I just ask that whatever your opinion, please respect other’s viewpoints.

Never been married, but I’d feel the same as you. Promising to “obey” your spouse, or anyone for that matter for ALL ETERNITY is a little much, I think. It can’t be done. You can try to minimize conflict, find solutions, compromise, listen to each other, but obey? All the time? Naw. Ain’t gonna happen.

That’s my take on it.

I do have some friends who are very conservative Christian, and they most certainly included the “obey” in their vows. The wife is expected to do whatever the husband wants, all the time, even if it means degrading herself, not taking care of herself, putting him first, la la la. It makes me sick, to tell you the truth.

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Ours didn’t include them but if I were to do it over again I would.

That (obey) is a reflection of a bible verse that refers to the husband being the head of the household, like Christ is the head of the church. If you are Christian, if Jesus asked you to do something you’d do it, right? Well, as a married couple, your husband is to love you and the family like Christ loves the whole church, and thus lovingly guide the family in the best direction. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I would use it now because I gladly follow my husbands’ lead in many things because I know that he has my and the children’s best interests at heart. That being said, he also does the same in the areas that I have more knowledge or experience. So even though we ‘obey’, it’s more like respect each other’s areas of expertise.

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While I’m not really big on Christian splitting themselves up into different denomonations and wish everyone could just get along, I go to a Baptist church and married a Baptist family. Our vows didn’t include “obey.” Even though I agree with Headless Mom’s comment–wives should obey their husbands as long as he is directing the family in the way Christ would direct the church–I wouldn’t have said it! I don’t think wives should obey their husbands if their husbands want something done that isn’t right/moral/godly etc.

Anyway, it’s too late for me to remember how I even came across this blog, but interesting post! I’ll have to come back again someday.
Jenelles last blog post..Wordless Wednesday–Excedrin Anyone?

My first wedding was Baptist and “obey” was in the vows. I had NO idea it would be until the preacher said it in the wedding. I was shocked but I repeated it. Second time, no way. I wasn’t vowing to “obey” anyone. It didn’t work out well the first time anyway. LOL

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I wasn’t a Christian when I got married and obey wasn’t in my vows. My husband isn’t very ‘Christ-like’ at times and it is hard to submit to him. But I try to trust God in this. My husband is not a cruel tyrant and has good judgement in most things. I look on it as a way to show my love not only to my husband, but to God. I do my best to follow His commands by submitting to my husband. Actually, I don’t think it’s possible to submit to another unless you are a Christian. It’s just barely possible when you are.

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I said obey in my vows - but then I got married a hundred years ago in a Catholic Church. I think they still use that word in the marriage vows.

I have to agree with you though, I don’t believe that it is appropriate in this day and age. And I don’t agree that a husband is the one who ‘directs’ the family and neither is he the household head. Rubbish, we all contribute something … you can’t just count the financial contribution - and many women contribute handsomely to that.

They should definatly take that word out!!

Our wedding was performed by a ship’s chaplain, but I can’t remember if the words ‘obey’ were in them right offhand. Doesn’t matter; I give as good as I get regardless.

Devilish Southern Belles last blog post..I can’t believe it’s come to this.

Two marriages (neither in a church) and obey was purposefully left out of the vows in both.

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We chose our vows, and they didn’t have the word “obey” in them. We are a team, and always have been..sometimes he needs to be the voice of reason, and sometimes I do.

I was somewhat startled at a friend’s wedding when my friend promised to obey but her new husband did not. I shouldn’t have been, but I was. (And that was a Baptist wedding, although I know I’ve heard it at weddings of other denominations as well. For some reason that one just startled me.)

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We just got married in March in a Methodist church. We were both pretty adamant about having egalitarian vows, so we searched around for some that were traditional, church appropriate, yet fitting for both of us. They really just emphasized what we share now and what we hope to gain with each other in the future.

I, _, ask you, _, to be my husband/wife as my friend and my love.
On this day I affirm the relationship we have enjoyed, looking to the future to deepen and strengthen it. I will be yours in plenty and in want, in sickness and in health, in failure and in triumph. Together we will dream, we will stumble but restore each other, we will share all things, serving each other and our fellow humanity. I will cherish and respect you, comfort and encourage you, be open with you, and stay with you, forsaking all others for as long as we both shall live.

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I am in the beginning phases of wedding-planning, and we have already decided there will be no “obey” in our vows. We’re Catholic, and we understand the biblical context - it’s just not for us. I do promise to respect him - but obey? Not so much.

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Sometimes I feel like marriage itself is outdated.

My sister had a baptist wedding and it was in there.

I had a heathen wedding and it wasn’t.

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ours did not.
although my wedding cost 10 bucks (justice of the peace) was held in the basement of a jail (chapel hill nc) and I was wearing a sweatshirt and running tights ( but my parents were in attendance!).

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We were married by a justice of the peace in a very nice small family wedding outside at a country club. There were 50ish people in attendance. The lady does the repeat after me part and she says the obey thing and the photographer gets a picture of my face as she says that word. I have to try to find that picture….it’s SO classic - its a solid mix of horrified and hilariously funny like “are you joking”. Needless to say I didn’t repeat that word and she omitted it when she did the FH’s vows.

Dogs Obey. I. Am not a dog.

Casss last blog post..Intentionally vague

We got to choose (from a list of about 5 sets) what vows we wanted to say. Some had obey, others didn’t. We chose one that didn’t.

wrights last blog post..Wordless Wednesday - Sticky Fingers

We got hitched in Vegas and requested an non-religious ceremony, but the chapel had a different idea about that. We had to stand through 10 minutes of preaching (and I’m really not exaggerating even though it sounds like it) before he got to the nitty gritty.

I honestly don’t remember what we said to each other. I think we should get married again so I can take notes. I think I was too distracted that we just got preached to for 10 minutes and that even though my husband and I agreed we weren’t having anyone stand with us, there was his cousin standing next to him at the alter.

Janines last blog post..My goodness, I’m dense.

No, no, no, no obeying for this Presbyterian-wed couple.

But my dad (a Methodist) tried to tell me after the wedding that someone has to have a 51% vote in a relationship, because there are some things you just can’t compromise on, so if we found something along the way (like c*rcumc*s*on, maybe) where we couldn’t compromise, it was my DUTY to let my husband win - because men need that extra 1% vote to feel manly or something insane.

Needless to say, I didn’t take this ridiculous advice. The fact that dad has been divorced twice played a large role in my decision not to take this ridiculous advice…

Amy @ http://prettybabies.blogspot.com

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Is it absolutely horrible that I don’t REMEMBER if our vows included “obey”?
I’m going to a Baptist wedding this weekend - I’ll be listening extra close to see if she’s going to obey her husband.

Cathys last blog post..The goslings are crying…

oh, if I decided to discuss this with my husband we would get in a heated biblical debate for sure that would result in someone not having a comfy bed by the end of the night.

Let’s just say I’m with you. And if my vows had “obey” in them, my fingers were crossed behind my pretty white dress…

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We wrote our own humanist ceremony and there was no g*d and certainly no obey. We had my folks minister do the ceremony and she slipped in two references to g*d. My great aunt and uncle liked the ceremony so much, they began driving an hour each way to her church.

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It’s been 17 years and 2 days since I took those vows - I have NO idea if I said obey. I’m betting not - but ya know… who knows. Now I’m gonna have to call my ex and ask him if he remembers LOL Dammit.

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Jenelle, welcome! Glad you commented!

dysfunctional mom, I wondered if anyone would say that it had been a surprise when the officiant wanted you to repeat “obey!”

I think that I would have said it, too, because I would have been so surprised.

Sarah, I know what you mean about understanding the biblical CONTEXT. But despite the context, I just don’t do submission.

Cass, I’m impressed you didn’t say it. I probably would have because I would have been so shocked and flustered that I would have just blurted it out!

I just have to say that many of these comments truly surprise me. Thank you all for your honesty!

Also, thank you all for being very respectful with your comments thus far.

Before I start my comment, I’ll tell you that I’m writing from the perspective of a Christian woman who is married…who used “obey” in her vows!

I think the obedience vow goes back to scripture. Ephesians 5 instructs wives to submit (or obey) their husbands in the same way that all people are to obey the Lord. Men are instructed to love their wives as Jesus loves the church - in a holy and sacrificial way. There are a lot of parallels between husband/wife relationships and the relationship between Jesus and the church.

” Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”

There are a lot of people who will read that, and assume that a wife is supposed to bow down to her husband and become his slave. Bullcrap. They need to keep reading…

“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.”

Marriage - the way God intended it - is supposed to be a beautiful cycle of love, respect, obedience to one another, care for one another, etc.

Just my two cents…

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Thanks Katie, for including the rest of the story about a man’s role. It helps soften the blow of the word “obey” and “submit.”

It’s hard for me to get past those words. It’s hard for me to think of marriage where I’m not equal to my husband despite the context of the Bible.

Your comment was very informative, thank you. (by the way, I’m Catholic, so it’s not as if I’m a Godless person, I think we just all have different views and interpretations of the Bible.)

We were married in 1994 (14 years July 2nd) in a Lutheran Church. The Pastor asked if we wanted to write our own vows, or use traditional ones. We chose traditional and he gave us about 4 or so sets of vows to choose from. And I clearly remember one set having obey in it, and I clearly remember we DID NOT choose that particular set.
This is a very interesting subject, I’ll be back to read more comments.

Karens last blog post..Weekly Words Challenge

No obeying at my wedding and none that I have been to and I go to a very conservative, evangelical church. We got to choose our vows. I understand the biblical context but, for me, I obey NO MAN!

Tonis last blog post..Makeup Artist

I can’t remember if they were in my vows. Crap. That can’t be good, can it?

I don’t have a problem with it though. I know a lot of people freak because they hear the word obey and suddenly visualize a subservient lap dog for a wife.

That’s not the point.

It’s about respect that you GIVE, not orders that are taken.

I’m not sure I know how to adequately describe it. Or that my husband would believe a word of me saying I try to “obey” him. LOL

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Obey, no I do not obey my husband. Did not have that in my vows and even if I did I wouldn’t obey him. In a marriage you respect your spouse not obey them. If they do not like it when you leave the toliet seat up and they ask you nicely not to do it anymore, you don’t leave the toliet seat up. That is not obeying that is just common decency.

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I’m pretty sure “to obey” wasn’t in our wedding vows. I’m Catholic btw.

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Ain’t nobody obeying nobody around these parts. I can’t get one of the dogs to do what I want, let alone the husband. It’s all good, though.

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I did not say “obey” - Catholic wedding.
There is no obeying - I just cannot deal with that word.

Teris last blog post..Perceptions and a Poll

No obey for us. But the minister that married us walked us through actually thinking about what we were saying to each other and we decided to say “I give myself to this man” instead of “I take this man”. I probably doesn’t actually affect our marriage, but it was a nice touch.

DeuceMoms last blog post..End of an era

I had a Methodist wedding, too, through and through, and there was no mention of obedience. My problem, even with the obey stuff in the entire Biblical context, is that obey is (and certainly was in Biblical times) a word of slavery - an obligation - whereas love (what the husband is instructed to do) is a choice of a free person. So the Biblical context, to me, actually complicates the matter more than justifies it. I don’t mind being told to love my husband, but I do mind an assumption on the part of my religion that I am obliged rather than freely choosing.

Here’s something worse than obey, in my mind: I once went to a Catholic wedding in which the couple had to promise to have as many children as God blessed them with. They all but swore not to use any form of birth control. Yikes.

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Sus, yeah, I’m Catholic (we had a Methodist wedding), but MANY of my friends truly believe the part about having as many children as God blesses them with. I admire that, but for me? NO FLIPPING WAY.

I’m probably going to hell for having an IUD.

I don’t really consider myself Baptist (in that I don’t really believe some of the stuff that they do) but I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and that is where I was married. A friend of mine who had already been married by the same preacher warned me beforehand that he would want me to use the love honor and obey vows. I was glad she told me, b/c even though he gave me a ’script’ of what he was going to say, I know I probably wouldn’t have looked that closely. I politely asked him to change it to “love, honor, and cherish” and he did. I don’t really like the word obey when talking about a spouse. I would probably follow mine to the ends of the earth, and have even let him go with a hairbrained scheme or two without saying a word, but I will not vow to obey him, just as he didn’t vow to obey me. In my opinion, marriage is a partnership, and partners don’t have to swear to obey each other.

We are agnostics so we had a non-denominational wedding, where we choose our own vows.

I think it;s the old-fashioned religious ceremonies that tend to have that kind of worfding.

AndreAnnas last blog post..One more thing…

I was married in a Catholic ceremony and they gave us this little booklet with al the readings, songs, and things to choose from. Obey was one of the vow options.

Yeah. No.

I also avoided all readings that involved the words helpmate and Eve.

We went with love, honor, and cherish.

Something about obey sits wrong with me. We are a partnership, not a monarchy.

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I’m Catholic - had a Catholic wedding. And I DO remember there being some discussion about whether or not to include those words. I think I remember my husband being the one to say that they weren’t necessary. (Darn right!) And I understand the context. I guess it’s just the way you want to LIVE.

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We had two weddings. The first, we were married by one of our best friends who is a (mail order) minister. We wrote our own vows.
The next day we had a Jewish ceremony. I distinctly remember the vows containing the feeling of “obey” without actually saying it. A lot of “turning to your husband in all things” and “following his lead”etc.
We had them change it so that we “turned to each other” instead.

Clinks last blog post..one week

The Methodist minister who married us gave us several examples of traditional vows, but asked us to use those as a basis to write our own. I told her, jokingly but not if you kwim, that I absolutely would not say “obey”. She laughed too and said she didn’t say it at her wedding either!

Children obey, dogs obey, adults compromise!

Interesting discussion.

I think we have a knee jerk (and VERY negative) reaction to the word “obey.” Do people always obey God? No. Do wives always obey husbands? No. Do husbands always love their wives the way Christ loved the church? No.

Obey and submit are not dirty words. But in society at large, there are leaders and there are followers. Most parents expect obedience from their children. We don’t think it’s such a bad word when we are mom or dad. Why is that? We need them to be obedient for their best interest, and because we are responsible for their actions until they reach a legal age. It’s not meant to make them slaves, subservient or lesser.

Wives and husbands are different. They are a team, true. They have important roles to fulfill within their family, and I am not talking about who is the bread winner either. Wives are the spiritual heart of the the home. Husbands are the head of the home, not in a dictatorial way, but literally responsible for that family BEFORE GOD. That is a huge, HUGE responsibility to bear. I know that *I* would not want to be the one standing before God with that burden. A submissive wife is not a doormat or a subject of abuse. That woman needs to walk out the door and never look back. A submissive wife is one who helps her husband, and offers her opinion and advice to him regarding all decisions. A good husband has her best interests at heart and knows her desires, and makes decisions with her input. When there is disagreement about a decision (and there will be), a woman who is submissive will let the man make it. He might be wrong, and he will figure that out soon enough, but then he will be even more likely to listen in the future. Especially if you don’t harp about what a bad decision he made.

The word obey was not in my vows, that I recall anyway, but I would purposely put it there now. I am no door mat. I am a strong, educated and independent woman who sees beauty and freedom in a marriage the way God designed it to be. He’s always right, and when I stop stubbornly refusing to do things His way, I am blessed beyond imagination. Culture and society have made those words into dirty, four letter words. That was not what was intended. Just my novel of a comment.

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I think sometimes people who get married may not realize the vows they take…they hire a minister/priest/etc. and just go from there. Our vows were a combination or other vows I had found so we kind of wrote them ourselves. Obey was not in them at all. However, our entire ceremony was very Pagan in theme and we made sure it was more about two equals coming together to share a life (I refused to be “given away” as I am not property to be given).

Many many wedding traditions are steeped in the religious traditions of times gone by and few people actually question them because, well, they are traditions. The white dress didn’t start out about purity or virginity…it was actually a wealthy custom as only the wealthy could afford a white dress that could not be washed (remember, no special fabric soap back in the day) and only worn once. It used to be you just wore your best clothes (I actually had a jewel tone blue dress).

The Bride being given away is because women were property owned by their father’s first, then by they husbands (hence the vow “obey” started). Flowers were to cover up body odor since baths weren’t taken as regularly.

Few people think to question these traditions, including “obey” in the vows as they are usually caught up in the whole wedding thing…the flowers have to be just right, the dressed, the food, etc..sometimes the vows are taken for granted and not realized until the end.

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I agree with the Headless Mom’s comment. The word obey should aso include the phrase “as he obeys the Lord.” It is actually more of a responsibility for the man. I bleieve that it puts the majority of the pressure on him.

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Our Methodist pastor was so cool– she gave us this book full of traditional wedding vows from tons of different religions, and we patchworked together something that fit us to a tee. It DID NOT include the word “obey.” Because the very idea made me barf a little in my mouth.

This pastor was SO COOL that when I uttered the words, “I’d like to take it easy on the Jesus” when discussing our ceremony, she didn’t even balk once.

The Other Dawns last blog post..The Second Shift

We were married by a judge. We didn’t vow to “obey” but we did “plight our troth” …. almost as outdated!

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Great comments. I have no idea if I said obey or not anymore. We had a Catholic wedding (although we are no longer Catholic) and we used the ‘canned’ vows from the church.

Today, I would TOTALLY say it. Don’t get me wrong. I have my own mind. I speak my mind. I have opinions and attitude and my husband loves me for all of that (he better anyway). However, as a Christian today, I TOTALLY feel that my hubby is the head of our house and if there was a MAJOR issue that we TOTALLY COULD NOT COME TO AN AGREEMENT ON after lots of discussion (and yelling and maybe even some plate throwing), in the END, he is the head of the family. I let him lead our family because that is what God wants me to do and that is how he was created. He is a leader in life more than I am. work, etc. So, he is more equipped to lead our house than I am in the end. I can’t believe I just wrote that, but I believe it.

HOWEVER, that being said, he usually sits back and lets me do it my way. He rarely says anything, but when he does, after I am done pouting, I really listen.

KEEP BELIEVING

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The minister that married us stuck it in there after given strict instruction to not do such a thing. Luckily, he was 90 and looked to be on the verge of biting the dust, so I let it go.

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We went to a wedding while engaged, and ‘obey’ was used! This was a Lutheran church of the conservative synod, in 1997. We were married in a Lutheran church of the “liberal” synod and ‘obey’ was NOT used…and it would’ve been removed had it been in the service as written. Cause I sooooo would not ‘obey’ my husband. Puhleeze.

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I am Baptist and the word ‘obey’ was absolutely not in my wedding vows. I am his wife, not his child. I am not sure how anyone can justify the ‘obey’ thing, since I’m pretty sure that nowhere in the Bible does it say that one spouse is the boss of the other

We were married by a very nice, older Southern Baptist minister that also plays the part of my father-in-law.

He hated our vows. Did not read them before the ceremony. Used traditional Southern Baptist vows from his memory where he saw fit. If he said obey, then I kindly erased it from my memory. I know for sure I didn’t say obey.

Interesting topic. I honestly have no idea if the word “obey” was in our vows. We were supposed to do our own vows and the priest thought we would be to nervous and went with the canned ones at the last minute.

I did NOT say ‘obey’ in my vows. If I did, then I would be lying, because we both pretty much do whatever we want within reason, and obeying is dumb! LOL.

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I was too hungover on my wedding day to remember if that was in our vows or not?

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i had a Jewish wedding. no vows.
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First of all, I’m amazed that so many women didn’t know what their vows would be before they said them. Just amazed! Not only did our pastor give us a book with all sorts of vows, we got to pick & choose and personalize. We stuck with pretty standard stuff - love, cherish & all that - but he certainly couldn’t have slipped “obey” in there without us knowing it.

And just for laughs, when I first read Christine’s comment (above), I thought she said “I was too hungry…” Now that was be funny!

I’m not married yet, but hopefully some day…

I can tell you though that if I uttered the words “obey” and/or “submit” in vows to my husband at my wedding there would be people climbing over themselves to object to the marriage on the premise that I must be high or drunk or have a head injury.

But that’s just me.

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Our catholic wedding used obey and I never really thought about it - since it was just part of the tradition. I was more concerned with one of the options for the reading that basically said that the woman will be in servitude to their husband for the rest of their lives.
You k now - this one:
Happy the husband of a good wife, twice-lengthened are his days;

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/sirach/sirach26.htm

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We were married (and currently attend) at a Christian Alliance church. We were given lots of vow choices, or the option of saying our own. I believe as I was scanning them I raised an eyebrow at the ones that included “obey” and our pastor laughed and mentioned that most people avoid words like that now and that he certainly didn’t care if we didn’t want to say that. He also said something to the effect of, “Obey is pretty unBiblical, anyways- we are told to ‘respect’ and ‘honor’ each other, not obey.”
So we went with promising to honor one another. I understand the “context” of obey, but the use of it does rub me the wrong way. To me obedience DOES imply a certain mental inferiority- for example, children need to sometimes just obey us for their own safety and well being because they are too young to make good judgements for themselves, lack maturity and experience, etc. But I don’t think an adult in a respectful relationship should ever be compelled to unquestioningly obey the other. COMPROMISE is always necessary, and obviously on some issues one person or the other is going to get their way. But I believe that MUTUAL respect can help you solve those dilemas, not one person feeling bound to obey the other.

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Sarah (semi-desperate housewife), That’s exactly what I think, too. I think there’s a huge difference between expecting a child to obey vs. expecting the woman to obey her husband.

Those words obey and submit really rub me the wrong way.

Very well stated comment! Go Sarah!

I actually asked the priest to REMOVE ‘obey’ from our vows. He chuckled a little…and did it.

We had a Catholic ceremony and “obey” was not a part of it. Although we had friends who got married just before we did and while they were not supposed to say “obey” either, the groom spontaneously threw it into his vows to get a laugh from the crowd. Turned out to be fitting because she clearly wears the pants. Anyway, I think someone going for traditional may not even notice the significance of repeating the word. But for me, it was not an option.

Cynthias last blog post..60 years is a long, long time

I can’t remember if my wedding included that, I don’t think it did. Ours was not a religious ceremony and we had a Marriage Commissioner wed us. Basically , this is a retired lawyer or judge I believe who applied for a license to do this.

If it did, I probably would have said it. Because I don’t personally believe obey is meant to be taken so literal. A couple needs enough mutual respect that if one asked the other something, you would respect them enough to comply. This could be something as small as taking out the trash, or ‘please do not stay out late tonight - we have X to do tomorrow’.

The rest of the vows could cover this though. Respect, Honor, Cherish. If you have those, I dont think Obey needs to be in there.

SunKist Mom, I get what you are saying about respect, then don’t both the woman AND man say “obey!” If we both said it, I’d be less irritated at the implication.

We wrote our own vows and were married by a friend. Our wedding was small (25 people including us) at my parents’ home.

Our vows reflected our spirituality and our sense of coming together as two people to share equally in life. I suppose it was pagan!

I just now looked up the word obey, and the first definition is “to follow the commands or guidance of.”

I, personally, would never use the words submit and obey to describe the relationship between me and my husband or between us as parents to our children. But I would say that my husband and I guide each other through life; and that he and I have the responsibility to guide our children. None of us expect blind obedience from each other, and we actively try to minimize the commands/demands we make.

So although both words are in the definition of obey, I see commands and guidance are two very different things, and feel that obey in terms of commands and blind obedience are not so great, but that obey in terms of guidance can make sense in certain contexts.

Thanks, Jennifer and everyone, for a good discussion. I felt I came to a deeper understanding of the word obey and how it fits into our lives in different ways.

Blessings,
Stacy

Stacy (mama-om)s last blog post..Attitude of Gratitude

I got married in 2003. Can’t remember if I said ‘obey’. I think if I’d had my choice, though, I wouldn’t have.

About a year later my best friend and I were bridesmaids for a high-school friend’s wedding. At the dress rehearsal, the minister went over the typical ‘promise to love, honor, and obey’ vow. Our friend stopped him there, and told him she wanted to add a bit to that. The line then became “I promise to obey in thought and in deed“. We were appalled. Really? Even your thoughts aren’t your own anymore?

Miriams last blog post..As Requested: The Officia Isaiah-to-English Dictionary

Let me first say that I did not consider myself traditional AT ALL prior to meeting my now husband. I wasn’t sure if I believed in marriage and I did not think that we needed to get married. However, at that time in my life I wasn’t listening to God. I have always felt something in my heart….that God and I can carry on this pure, simple conversation…..but there have definitely been times in my life when I tuned Him out.

Having said that, we chose to have ‘traditional’ vows at our wedding and they did include the word ‘obey’. I am a complicated, outspoken and can sometimes be a real pain in the ass. But…I absolutely would obey my husband. He said the same vows and he would obey me. Would I be in a marriage in which I had to ‘obey’ someone that I always disagreed with? Or felt like he was not leading our family in Christ? I would not. But me and my hubbie discuss, respect, and compromise.

I think it is a matter of semantics. Obey just sounds bad. It instantly makes us feel submissive. I am not submissive to my husband but I do compromise and listen much more that I ever thought I would. It works for us.

I absolutely refused to have that word in our vows. No one insisted on it — perhaps I scared them off? What made me laugh is that mother was the same way (she got married in the late 50’s, when everyone was saying it). I wish my grandmother were around to ask her what she did. She was kind of a maverick too. Guess it runs in the family.

midlife mommys last blog post..It Does Happen, Just That Fast

Catholic here, no obey in our vows. my husband would have probably busted out laughing if I ever promised that.
Kellys last blog post..Wordless Wednesday

I can’t remember if I said it or not. But I don’t have a problem with it.

I am a kept woman! LOL!

Connies last blog post..Loralee Hangover?

We didn’t say “obey.” We ALSO did not say “until death do us part.” We had a methodist minister marry us, outside, although we’re not really religious.

You can write and word it however you want.

moos last blog post..Book meme

I think people tend to take “OBEY” either (A) literally, (B) figuratively or (C) not at all. I’m thinking a B type myself. You know the all in moderation and blah blah blah type. Oh hell, what do I know.

BTW, woot on the XSI. Now listen to me Jennifer. Start begging for Canon L glass!

MamaGeeks last blog post..How To Get A Toddler To Wear A Helmet

We memorized our vows; no one could sneak other words in!

I did not say obey. Maybe today I would.

As a Christian I know my husband loves the Lord and we make important decisions together with much prayer and careful thinking through of the different sides of the issue at hand.

If the crunch were on,and we needed to decide something really important that we disagreed on, I would give in. Because I know my husband has our family on the top of his priority list in his decision making. I trust him because he loves me and our kids. This doesn’t make me feel like I’m less in the marriage. It’s hard to explain….

Sonjas last blog post..Tom and Melissa’s Wedding

Ours was love you and honor you all the days of my life. And, the part someone above mentioned about accepting children willingly from God. I don’t think that is necessarily saying, “Go forth and single-handedly procreate like the Duggars.” It just means be open to having family.

Anglophile Football Fanatics last blog post..Holy COW!

No obey here. And if it had even been suggested, I would have picked a different minister. It just happened that our minister was a friend of ours who also spent his free time dressing up in a kilt and renaissance clothing, so we figured he was a pretty liberal guy.

Christinas last blog post..Give Me Your Best Frugal Living Tips, O Wise Readers

We were in the middle of our rehearsal when the Rev dropped the “O” ‘Bomb. I’m not sure which scared the good Rev worse - my immediate death glare or my soon to be hubby who was absolutely APPALLED
it was even still in use in vows - and was quite VERBAL in his insistance that it was NOT TO BE USED IN OUR CEREMONY !

My hubby rocks !

And this was not recent - this was 1986.

I’m Baptist and we didn’t use the Common Book of Prayer vows that are so popular. That’s a Catholic thing BTW. But, point being is that if you look up the “hierarchy” of God’s design of the family, husbands outrank wives. Are men better, nope not saying that. It’s just a hierarchy. A good husband will be like a good manager though and take into consideration his chief advisor’s advice on things. That adviser being his wife. And hey, you get to sleep with your boss. Baptist get a lot of flack for following the blueprint. No one said that men were supposed to hold their wives in complete bondage and slavery, unless that’s your thing. That’s something the media drummed up to make conservative Christians look bad.

Knot

Knots last blog post..Photography Tutorial - Let There Be Light

I liked Katie’s response. This subject is SOOOOO much deeper than just the word “obey”. Like you said, people want to throw a value to a person with that word. And it really starts in Genesis with Adam and Eve. The curse on men and women sets all this up. But Katie hit the nail on the head.

Knot

Knots last blog post..Photography Tutorial - Let There Be Light

I was married in a Catholic ceremony and ‘obey’ was not used (it is not necessarily a Catholic thing). If it had been said I know that I would have laughed… along with my husband and actually, possibly everyone in the church!!

Marriage is a 50/50 thing. Okay, maybe 55/45…and you know who gets the 55!!!!

Helens last blog post..AAAUUUGGGHHH!!!!

Interesting topic. My vows didn’t include the word ‘obey.’ I think they said, ‘love , honor, cherish.’ Something like that. Sickness, health, forsaking all others. la la la.

Should have said, ‘forsake doing SELFISH LOADS of laundry.’

TNGs last blog post..Healthy Humping For All My Areas, Starting With The Body.

It doesn’t really bother me to say it as long as both the husband and wife BOTH say it. Otherwise, no way! We didn’t say it in our wedding. Our priest actually was the one who said, “let’s nix that. It’s silly.” Hehe Love that.

Kathryn, HA! I love that, too.

No way in hell. We said the EXACT same vows to each other.

heathers last blog post..In An Instant

hey, not sure if i ‘count’ in this discussion, since i’m muslim, not christian, but there was NO “obey” word used in mine and my husband’s wedding either - by either of us. the only entity i obey is God. period. i also kept my own surname

for us, power and submission in the marriage is fluid and a constantly changing dynamic; it really depends on who feels more strongly about an issue, and also who might have a greater insight into something, given our backgrounds, education and professional fields, etc. so there are times when i bend to him and times he bends to me. i’d say it works out pretty evenly (although i’m sure he’d say i always win!), and to me, that’s how a marriage should work. we are PARTNERS.

muslim mom, OF COURSE you count!! Thank you so much for commenting and offering up your opinion!

I LOVE that you said power and submission is fluid and constantly changing…I think that accurately describes my marriage as well.

No obey. Dogs obey their master. Children obey adults. Adults obey laws. Married people support and encourage each other.

slackermommys last blog post..How not to discipline if you have an impulsive child

Our Jewish wedding vows certain did NOT include the word “obey.” However, we both signed the Ketuba which pretty much states in Hebrew that he can trade me in for two cows and a sheep.

my minivan is faster than yourss last blog post..I’m Practically Mrs. Seinfeld

Mark and I were married in a Pentecostal church, I know get your jaw off the floor. I asked the preacher not to include obey in our vows.

Christys last blog post..Friends

I am Catholic and “obey” is not a part of our vows either. I like the beginning of the “wedding” part of the vows– the priest asks if you have come willingly to be united in marriage (response= “we have”), if you accept one another as your lawfully-wedded spouse (response= “we do”), and if you agree to accept children lovingly and willingly as a gift from God (”we will”)– then they do the exchange of the rings and it’s done!

My husband and I wrote our own vows, and they didn’t include the word obey. But I guess if I was the sort that had wanted a traditional wedding it wouldn’t have bothered me…

manager moms last blog post..Wii Are In Peril

Interesting topic Jennifer.

Being that my memory is SOOO bad, I cannot remember if we said obey. I’m leaning toward that we didn’t say it. Simply because we wrote our vows.

Hey, I’m looking forward to meeting you face to face at Blogher this year!

-Nette

Nette @ Smiling Moms last blog post..The, the new Duh

I can’t even remember my vows! How terrible is that…

But we wrote our own and they were all ‘you are my everything’ type stuff. Wish I put in something about picking up his clothes and loading the dishwasher…

Kelleys last blog post..Where is my union rep?

Wow. This is the best set of comments EVER and I’m totally biting my tongue.

As a non-religious couple we were married by a family friend who is a Judge and he was specifically asked for three things when writing our vows:
1) Do NOT use the word “OBEY” AT ALL
2) No mention of God, Heaven or anything even remotely religious
3) Use AS MANY “Friends” references as possible, which he did. It was awesome.

AMomTwoBoyss last blog post..One Word? As If THAT’s Something I Could Do

Hey, thanks for stopping by and leaving a comment…

When we sat down with our minister I told him that my dad would give me away since no one owns me and that I wouldn’t obey any man. He laughed and said that the Methodist really didn’t use the word obey. I also have a picture of my dear sweet husband kissing my feet after the ceremony!

Marye~s last blog post..In the Suburban Garden

I can’t remeber if I said “obey” and our wedding was just 3 years ago. I try to “submit” to my husband about most things. I rarely “submit” without giving my opinion. I usually say “Here’s what I think and why….But I trust you to think about it do the right thing” And then if whatever he does backfires on him, I don’t have to say a thing. He already knows why I thought it was stupid.

KAs last blog post..Big Thoughts

Obey was in our vows. We had the option of substituting cherish, but it has a totally different meaning and seems redundant to love to me. But I agree with what Headless Mom said. My view was that it was that we would respect each others decisions (even though we rarely make on that is not a joint effort) - the way life has worked out, we both have our areas of expertise.

I was once at a wedding rehersal where the bride refused to say FIDELITY in the “This ring is a sign of my love and fidelity” part. (Catholic wedding) CAN YOU IMAGINE marrying someone who wouldn’t use FIDELITY in their wedding??? But, they’re still married. Go figure.

Sue @ My Party of 6s last blog post..I’d Like Some Cheese With My Whine, Please

I went to a wedding like this a few year ago. The minister actually delivered a sermon on how the purpose of a wife was solely to provide for her husband and have children. The Husband was pinching me to keep me from gasping out loud in shock.

Their wedding announcement in the paper even had a line about obeying the husband. Seriously.

Rph Mommys last blog post..Dear MrsDoucheBag at the daycare drop-off,

My first marriage was in a Baptist church and yes, they did say “obey”. Believe me, my ex took it literally. There was no compromise. It was all “his” way. Well, I finally did things MY way and left his ass after 4 years of his drinking and abuse. They also said “I pronounce you “MAN” and wife, instead of Husband and Wife. Not sure why, but that rubs me wrong, too.

My current hubby and I got married at a small ceremony performed by a judge. He was AWESOME. He said “Love, honor, and Cherish”. He also had us look into each other’s eyes and think about what we wanted our marriage to be and gave us a moment of silence. (and he pronounced us “husband and wife”. It was beautiful.

Robins last blog post..Are you kidding me?????

He had to obey me but not me obeying him! Just kidding! Absolutely no obey anywhere in our vows! My parents were married in the early 70s and they didn’t have obey either!

Alisons last blog post..My Heart is Full, too

I am not going to even pretend I read 102 comments so if I am repeating someone else, I thoroughly apologize, because I am breaking about 42 blogger’s etiquette rules right there. I did want to share though that as often happens when reading Scripturally-based passages, we frequently interpret the language by our current definitions and not the way they were originally intended. I remembered the homily given during my brother’s wedding (we are Lutheran) and the basic focus was on the vows. I remembered the pastor covering “obey” but couldn’t quite bring up the way he explained it that really changed my thinking of its use in a Christian wedding ceremony. I did a quick Google search and found this post which I will share a tiny piece of here but is worth reading if you’re curious for more, especially what this whole “obey” thing also means to the husband:

The root of “obey” in both New Testament Greek and in the Latin of the early Western Christian Church comes from words meaning “listen.” The somewhat old-fashioned word “harken” (as in “Hark! The Herald Angels Sing”) comes closer to the intent of Scripture-based obedience than does the concept of slavishly following a master’s every whim.

Harkening means listening intently and with purpose. Christ calls His Church to hang on His every word because all He says and does is good for His bride. This ideal is the model for the wife, also — especially since her husband is charged with loving his wife “as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.”

Anyway, I found this explanation to make far more sense & be far more palatable than the connotation of “obey” that simply comes across as “I am in charge & you must bend to my will.”

Dawns last blog post..And I Quote: June 26, 2008

We actually were married on the beach, by a secular officiant, and wrote our whole wedding ceremony (not just the vows…WHOLE THING) to avoid any dogmatic religious views we didn’t agree with.

I personally would never agree to “obey” my husband. And I would never expect him to “obey” me against his better judgement. We are both feminists who feel that women are equal to men and men are equal to women. When you put “obey” in a marriage, you are necessitating one partner has final authority over another. This is not equality. I feel that we are equal partners and equal people in our relationship. We work towards the same future. We honored each other by taking each other’s last names, so we have a hyphenated Last-Name. I particularly relate to muslim’s mom’s comment about fluidity and partnership in a relationship.

Mistys last blog post..Conversations

I have heard of obey, it’s part of traditional vows. When we wrote our vows, we took several sets of vows I found and meshed them together, and you bet your butt the obey part was removed!

Rachaels last blog post..So You Think You Can Dance: Top 16

I had a Baptist preacher at our wedding, I was given the choice of obey or cherish, I jokingly refused to say obey. I just really liked cherish better.

justmylifes last blog post..An update and an award!

Dude. I was at an OBEY wedding once. I think the bride saw my jaw drop to the floor. It’s only slightly less moronic than a wedding my sister attended where the priest actually told the bride that she had to satisfy her husband in the bedroom or risk him going elsewhere. Seriously.

So, nope. No OBEY in my wedding. Then again, I wrote the entire ceremony and vows so I guess that’s not surprising.

andis last blog post..Be careful what you wish for

We had one of those hippy-dippy California weddings where we wrote our own vows and were married by a (Irish Catholic) lesbian friend of ours. She was a bigger “believer” than either of us!

Warrior gave her one condition: absolutely NO mention of God in the ceremony.

So yeah, no “obey.”

VDogs last blog post..Supermodel (You Better Work!)

WOW you got 800 thousand comments. We (I) wrote our ceremony, down to the minister’s words and our vows. So NO, there will be no obeying. Though we did promise to meet each other again after reincarnation.

My mom and step dad are the “man is the head of the household” types. I don’t remember if their vows actually included “obey” but that’s the practicality. My mom likes it that way. I think she doesn’t have to think so hard about things when he’s in charge. She claims it’s a partnership, but he just has kind of a superdelegate vote. I guess we kind of have that, too, only it’s more even. When it comes to matters of our home & kids, I’m the superdelegate. When we’re talking about the car, he’s the superdelegate. Otherwise we try to work out a consensus.

[/novel]

Okay, so I’m totally late but I have to comment. We got married at a chapel with an internet-ordained reverend-slash-realtor who said something about my husband “TAKING A BULLET” for me. Yup. And I was too damn cheap to have it videotaped so I will never relive that shocking moment again. It was awesome. Needless to say, we hadn’t rehearsed or anything. . . greatest thing ever!

Sabrinas last blog post..With great power. . .

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I'm Jennifer, Mom to Carson, 3, and Ella, 2. Wife and Bossaholic to Tate. My claim to fame is that I'm the #1 search result on Google for "kids pooping in pools!!." You can follow me on Twitter, see my stumbles at StumbleUpon, view my photos on Flickr, and contact me by email.

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2009 Booklist

The Given Day
Love in the Time of Cholera
Esther; It's Tough Being a Woman
~~Why is My Mother Getting a Tattoo?~~ I
~~Whitethorn Woods~~ B
~~The Five People You Meet in Heaven~~ A
~~Paula Spencer~~ B-
~~Digging to America~~ A
~~Rebecca~~ A-
~~The Friday Night Knitting Club~~ B
~~The Reader~~ B+
~~The Shack~~ B+
~~The Kite Runner~~ A
~~Three Junes~~ C-
~~Kitchen Confidential~~ A
~~A Cook's Tour~~ A
~~The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas~~ A
~~My Friend Leonard~~ A
~~Daisy Chain~~ F
~~The Gravedigger's Daughter~~ B-
~~A Girl Named Zippy~~ A-
~~Eat, Pray, Love~~ A
~~Water for Elephants~~ B+
~~The Book Thief~~ A++
~~The Poisonwood Bible~~ A+
~~The Hunger Games~~ A

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