Yesterday’s post straight out of 1950 where I play the perky, but sometimes discontent housewife got me thinking about our roles as women these days.
Somehow my train of thought led me to start thinking about the wedding of a friend, actually the wedding where I met Tate, where my girlfriend’s part of the vows included saying that she promised to love, honor, and obey her husband. I remember being utterly shocked. Obey?? Really? It was 1998, not 1898.
After the wedding, (not right after, more like a year or two after) I asked her why they included the word “obey” in her vows. She said she hadn’t even realized that and joked that really it should have been her husband who promised to obey because we all knew who REALLY wore the pants in that family.
I’m just going to go ahead and throw this out there that this was a Baptist wedding. Me not being Baptist, I have no idea if this is common practice, or if it’s common amongst different types of Baptists and not others. I also have no idea if other religions include this in their vows, though I’m certain it’s not just a Baptist thing. My Methodist wedding vows did not include the word “obey,” which is a good thing because I wouldn’t have been cool with saying that.
In my opinion, I cannot fathom vowing to obey anyone. Conversely, I wouldn’t want someone to vow to obey me. (Well, okay, I sorta would.) It seems very outdated and has been outdated since the last century. I am aware, though I don’t fully understand that the “obey” part of the vows is not only said, but also adhered to for some. Saying that is in no way meant to be judgmental, but since it is not a part of my reality, it’s hard for me to comprehend.
I’m curious if your vows include the word “obey?” If so, what did you think about it?
I know this topic has the possibility of starting a firestorm in the comments because we may be discussing faith based, personal issues, so I just ask that whatever your opinion, please respect other’s viewpoints.
The minister that married us stuck it in there after given strict instruction to not do such a thing. Luckily, he was 90 and looked to be on the verge of biting the dust, so I let it go.
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We went to a wedding while engaged, and ‘obey’ was used! This was a Lutheran church of the conservative synod, in 1997. We were married in a Lutheran church of the “liberal” synod and ‘obey’ was NOT used…and it would’ve been removed had it been in the service as written. Cause I sooooo would not ‘obey’ my husband. Puhleeze.
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I am Baptist and the word ‘obey’ was absolutely not in my wedding vows. I am his wife, not his child. I am not sure how anyone can justify the ‘obey’ thing, since I’m pretty sure that nowhere in the Bible does it say that one spouse is the boss of the other
We were married by a very nice, older Southern Baptist minister that also plays the part of my father-in-law.
He hated our vows. Did not read them before the ceremony. Used traditional Southern Baptist vows from his memory where he saw fit. If he said obey, then I kindly erased it from my memory. I know for sure I didn’t say obey.
Interesting topic. I honestly have no idea if the word “obey” was in our vows. We were supposed to do our own vows and the priest thought we would be to nervous and went with the canned ones at the last minute.
I did NOT say ‘obey’ in my vows. If I did, then I would be lying, because we both pretty much do whatever we want within reason, and obeying is dumb! LOL.
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I was too hungover on my wedding day to remember if that was in our vows or not?
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i had a Jewish wedding. no vows.
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First of all, I’m amazed that so many women didn’t know what their vows would be before they said them. Just amazed! Not only did our pastor give us a book with all sorts of vows, we got to pick & choose and personalize. We stuck with pretty standard stuff – love, cherish & all that – but he certainly couldn’t have slipped “obey” in there without us knowing it.
And just for laughs, when I first read Christine’s comment (above), I thought she said “I was too hungry…” Now that was be funny!
I’m not married yet, but hopefully some day…
I can tell you though that if I uttered the words “obey” and/or “submit” in vows to my husband at my wedding there would be people climbing over themselves to object to the marriage on the premise that I must be high or drunk or have a head injury.
But that’s just me.
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Our catholic wedding used obey and I never really thought about it – since it was just part of the tradition. I was more concerned with one of the options for the reading that basically said that the woman will be in servitude to their husband for the rest of their lives.
You k now – this one:
Happy the husband of a good wife, twice-lengthened are his days;
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/sirach/sirach26.htm
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We were married (and currently attend) at a Christian Alliance church. We were given lots of vow choices, or the option of saying our own. I believe as I was scanning them I raised an eyebrow at the ones that included “obey” and our pastor laughed and mentioned that most people avoid words like that now and that he certainly didn’t care if we didn’t want to say that. He also said something to the effect of, “Obey is pretty unBiblical, anyways- we are told to ‘respect’ and ‘honor’ each other, not obey.”
So we went with promising to honor one another. I understand the “context” of obey, but the use of it does rub me the wrong way. To me obedience DOES imply a certain mental inferiority- for example, children need to sometimes just obey us for their own safety and well being because they are too young to make good judgements for themselves, lack maturity and experience, etc. But I don’t think an adult in a respectful relationship should ever be compelled to unquestioningly obey the other. COMPROMISE is always necessary, and obviously on some issues one person or the other is going to get their way. But I believe that MUTUAL respect can help you solve those dilemas, not one person feeling bound to obey the other.
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Sarah (semi-desperate housewife), That’s exactly what I think, too. I think there’s a huge difference between expecting a child to obey vs. expecting the woman to obey her husband.
Those words obey and submit really rub me the wrong way.
Very well stated comment! Go Sarah!
I actually asked the priest to REMOVE ‘obey’ from our vows. He chuckled a little…and did it.
We had a Catholic ceremony and “obey” was not a part of it. Although we had friends who got married just before we did and while they were not supposed to say “obey” either, the groom spontaneously threw it into his vows to get a laugh from the crowd. Turned out to be fitting because she clearly wears the pants. Anyway, I think someone going for traditional may not even notice the significance of repeating the word. But for me, it was not an option.
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I can’t remember if my wedding included that, I don’t think it did. Ours was not a religious ceremony and we had a Marriage Commissioner wed us. Basically , this is a retired lawyer or judge I believe who applied for a license to do this.
If it did, I probably would have said it. Because I don’t personally believe obey is meant to be taken so literal. A couple needs enough mutual respect that if one asked the other something, you would respect them enough to comply. This could be something as small as taking out the trash, or ‘please do not stay out late tonight – we have X to do tomorrow’.
The rest of the vows could cover this though. Respect, Honor, Cherish. If you have those, I dont think Obey needs to be in there.
SunKist Mom, I get what you are saying about respect, then don’t both the woman AND man say “obey!” If we both said it, I’d be less irritated at the implication.
We wrote our own vows and were married by a friend. Our wedding was small (25 people including us) at my parents’ home.
Our vows reflected our spirituality and our sense of coming together as two people to share equally in life. I suppose it was pagan!
I just now looked up the word obey, and the first definition is “to follow the commands or guidance of.”
I, personally, would never use the words submit and obey to describe the relationship between me and my husband or between us as parents to our children. But I would say that my husband and I guide each other through life; and that he and I have the responsibility to guide our children. None of us expect blind obedience from each other, and we actively try to minimize the commands/demands we make.
So although both words are in the definition of obey, I see commands and guidance are two very different things, and feel that obey in terms of commands and blind obedience are not so great, but that obey in terms of guidance can make sense in certain contexts.
Thanks, Jennifer and everyone, for a good discussion. I felt I came to a deeper understanding of the word obey and how it fits into our lives in different ways.
Blessings,
Stacy
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I got married in 2003. Can’t remember if I said ‘obey’. I think if I’d had my choice, though, I wouldn’t have.
About a year later my best friend and I were bridesmaids for a high-school friend’s wedding. At the dress rehearsal, the minister went over the typical ‘promise to love, honor, and obey’ vow. Our friend stopped him there, and told him she wanted to add a bit to that. The line then became “I promise to obey in thought and in deed“. We were appalled. Really? Even your thoughts aren’t your own anymore?
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Let me first say that I did not consider myself traditional AT ALL prior to meeting my now husband. I wasn’t sure if I believed in marriage and I did not think that we needed to get married. However, at that time in my life I wasn’t listening to God. I have always felt something in my heart….that God and I can carry on this pure, simple conversation…..but there have definitely been times in my life when I tuned Him out.
Having said that, we chose to have ‘traditional’ vows at our wedding and they did include the word ‘obey’. I am a complicated, outspoken and can sometimes be a real pain in the ass. But…I absolutely would obey my husband. He said the same vows and he would obey me. Would I be in a marriage in which I had to ‘obey’ someone that I always disagreed with? Or felt like he was not leading our family in Christ? I would not. But me and my hubbie discuss, respect, and compromise.
I think it is a matter of semantics. Obey just sounds bad. It instantly makes us feel submissive. I am not submissive to my husband but I do compromise and listen much more that I ever thought I would. It works for us.
I absolutely refused to have that word in our vows. No one insisted on it — perhaps I scared them off? What made me laugh is that mother was the same way (she got married in the late 50′s, when everyone was saying it). I wish my grandmother were around to ask her what she did. She was kind of a maverick too. Guess it runs in the family.
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Catholic here, no obey in our vows. my husband would have probably busted out laughing if I ever promised that.
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I can’t remember if I said it or not. But I don’t have a problem with it.
I am a kept woman! LOL!
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We didn’t say “obey.” We ALSO did not say “until death do us part.” We had a methodist minister marry us, outside, although we’re not really religious.
You can write and word it however you want.
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I think people tend to take “OBEY” either (A) literally, (B) figuratively or (C) not at all. I’m thinking a B type myself. You know the all in moderation and blah blah blah type. Oh hell, what do I know.
BTW, woot on the XSI. Now listen to me Jennifer. Start begging for Canon L glass!
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We memorized our vows; no one could sneak other words in!
I did not say obey. Maybe today I would.
As a Christian I know my husband loves the Lord and we make important decisions together with much prayer and careful thinking through of the different sides of the issue at hand.
If the crunch were on,and we needed to decide something really important that we disagreed on, I would give in. Because I know my husband has our family on the top of his priority list in his decision making. I trust him because he loves me and our kids. This doesn’t make me feel like I’m less in the marriage. It’s hard to explain….
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Ours was love you and honor you all the days of my life. And, the part someone above mentioned about accepting children willingly from God. I don’t think that is necessarily saying, “Go forth and single-handedly procreate like the Duggars.” It just means be open to having family.
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No obey here. And if it had even been suggested, I would have picked a different minister. It just happened that our minister was a friend of ours who also spent his free time dressing up in a kilt and renaissance clothing, so we figured he was a pretty liberal guy.
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We were in the middle of our rehearsal when the Rev dropped the “O” ‘Bomb. I’m not sure which scared the good Rev worse – my immediate death glare or my soon to be hubby who was absolutely APPALLED
it was even still in use in vows – and was quite VERBAL in his insistance that it was NOT TO BE USED IN OUR CEREMONY !
My hubby rocks !
And this was not recent – this was 1986.
I’m Baptist and we didn’t use the Common Book of Prayer vows that are so popular. That’s a Catholic thing BTW. But, point being is that if you look up the “hierarchy” of God’s design of the family, husbands outrank wives. Are men better, nope not saying that. It’s just a hierarchy. A good husband will be like a good manager though and take into consideration his chief advisor’s advice on things. That adviser being his wife. And hey, you get to sleep with your boss. Baptist get a lot of flack for following the blueprint. No one said that men were supposed to hold their wives in complete bondage and slavery, unless that’s your thing. That’s something the media drummed up to make conservative Christians look bad.
Knot
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I liked Katie’s response. This subject is SOOOOO much deeper than just the word “obey”. Like you said, people want to throw a value to a person with that word. And it really starts in Genesis with Adam and Eve. The curse on men and women sets all this up. But Katie hit the nail on the head.
Knot
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I was married in a Catholic ceremony and ‘obey’ was not used (it is not necessarily a Catholic thing). If it had been said I know that I would have laughed… along with my husband and actually, possibly everyone in the church!!
Marriage is a 50/50 thing. Okay, maybe 55/45…and you know who gets the 55!!!!
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Interesting topic. My vows didn’t include the word ‘obey.’ I think they said, ‘love , honor, cherish.’ Something like that. Sickness, health, forsaking all others. la la la.
Should have said, ‘forsake doing SELFISH LOADS of laundry.’
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It doesn’t really bother me to say it as long as both the husband and wife BOTH say it. Otherwise, no way! We didn’t say it in our wedding. Our priest actually was the one who said, “let’s nix that. It’s silly.” Hehe Love that.
Kathryn, HA! I love that, too.
No way in hell. We said the EXACT same vows to each other.
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hey, not sure if i ‘count’ in this discussion, since i’m muslim, not christian, but there was NO “obey” word used in mine and my husband’s wedding either – by either of us. the only entity i obey is God. period. i also kept my own surname
for us, power and submission in the marriage is fluid and a constantly changing dynamic; it really depends on who feels more strongly about an issue, and also who might have a greater insight into something, given our backgrounds, education and professional fields, etc. so there are times when i bend to him and times he bends to me. i’d say it works out pretty evenly (although i’m sure he’d say i always win!), and to me, that’s how a marriage should work. we are PARTNERS.
muslim mom, OF COURSE you count!! Thank you so much for commenting and offering up your opinion!
I LOVE that you said power and submission is fluid and constantly changing…I think that accurately describes my marriage as well.
No obey. Dogs obey their master. Children obey adults. Adults obey laws. Married people support and encourage each other.
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Our Jewish wedding vows certain did NOT include the word “obey.” However, we both signed the Ketuba which pretty much states in Hebrew that he can trade me in for two cows and a sheep.
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Mark and I were married in a Pentecostal church, I know get your jaw off the floor. I asked the preacher not to include obey in our vows.
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I am Catholic and “obey” is not a part of our vows either. I like the beginning of the “wedding” part of the vows– the priest asks if you have come willingly to be united in marriage (response= “we have”), if you accept one another as your lawfully-wedded spouse (response= “we do”), and if you agree to accept children lovingly and willingly as a gift from God (“we will”)– then they do the exchange of the rings and it’s done!
My husband and I wrote our own vows, and they didn’t include the word obey. But I guess if I was the sort that had wanted a traditional wedding it wouldn’t have bothered me…
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Interesting topic Jennifer.
Being that my memory is SOOO bad, I cannot remember if we said obey. I’m leaning toward that we didn’t say it. Simply because we wrote our vows.
Hey, I’m looking forward to meeting you face to face at Blogher this year!
-Nette
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I can’t even remember my vows! How terrible is that…
But we wrote our own and they were all ‘you are my everything’ type stuff. Wish I put in something about picking up his clothes and loading the dishwasher…
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Wow. This is the best set of comments EVER and I’m totally biting my tongue.
As a non-religious couple we were married by a family friend who is a Judge and he was specifically asked for three things when writing our vows:
1) Do NOT use the word “OBEY” AT ALL
2) No mention of God, Heaven or anything even remotely religious
3) Use AS MANY “Friends” references as possible, which he did. It was awesome.
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When we sat down with our minister I told him that my dad would give me away since no one owns me and that I wouldn’t obey any man. He laughed and said that the Methodist really didn’t use the word obey. I also have a picture of my dear sweet husband kissing my feet after the ceremony!
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I can’t remeber if I said “obey” and our wedding was just 3 years ago. I try to “submit” to my husband about most things. I rarely “submit” without giving my opinion. I usually say “Here’s what I think and why….But I trust you to think about it do the right thing” And then if whatever he does backfires on him, I don’t have to say a thing. He already knows why I thought it was stupid.
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Obey was in our vows. We had the option of substituting cherish, but it has a totally different meaning and seems redundant to love to me. But I agree with what Headless Mom said. My view was that it was that we would respect each others decisions (even though we rarely make on that is not a joint effort) – the way life has worked out, we both have our areas of expertise.
I was once at a wedding rehersal where the bride refused to say FIDELITY in the “This ring is a sign of my love and fidelity” part. (Catholic wedding) CAN YOU IMAGINE marrying someone who wouldn’t use FIDELITY in their wedding??? But, they’re still married. Go figure.
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I went to a wedding like this a few year ago. The minister actually delivered a sermon on how the purpose of a wife was solely to provide for her husband and have children. The Husband was pinching me to keep me from gasping out loud in shock.
Their wedding announcement in the paper even had a line about obeying the husband. Seriously.
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